Mumbai-based Dalit intellectual, thinker, human rights activist and author of the book Khairlanji: A Strange and Bitter Crop, Dr Anand Teltumbde emails answers to R.K.Bijuraj’s querries on Dalit politics and situations. He critically examines the Dalit panther movement, Communists, Mayavathi and recent court verdicts.
“Nothing changes in India fundamentally”
What is the position of Dalits now in general? Do you think progressive changes happening around? Or facing setbacks?
Dalits more than ever before are a heterogeneous mass. Dalit was an aspirational quasi class term used for assimilating all untouchable people. When it was conceived, it represented fair amount of homogeneity in class terms. But now it represents comparable heterogeneity to that found in larger society, thanks to the reservation system and some other modernist schemes of the government which aggravated inequality in every strata of the society. Notwithstanding, a vast majority of Dalits, surely over 90 percent, are in bad shape because of the elitist orientation of the neoliberal state policies. They do not have access to good education, any hope to get a job therefore, the reservation is virtually gone (although there is so much clamour around it), rural economy of which they are part is in shambles, and even the caste atrocities, which could be seen as the manifestation of power asymmetry and function of general crisis, has been fast increasing. I do not see any progressive change happening since the last two decades of globalization. What appears good is happening only to a handful of elite among Dalits. Like their caste counterparts, they are also happy reaping some ‘trickle’ of the prosperity accruing to the top layer. Dalits as I see are suffering a serious set back in every field.
How can the caste system be annihilated? How do you go about it, politically?
Caste system can be annihilated by firstly negating it and then combating its remnant expression. What does it mean? It means that caste can never be annihilated by hampering upon caste, whether with an alibi of caste struggle or as simple innocence. To annihilate it, it needs to be transcended. Caste is basically a divisive category; it seeks hierarchy ad infinitum. It can never unite. The antidote to caste therefore is to use its opposite, class, which unites people in existential terms. This may sound difficult but is not so. It is the fact that Dalit could not be constructed by uniting all untouchable castes simply because we did not shun caste idiom. Once you bring in caste, you bring in caste consciousness and caste pride. These things will never let you unite. Stop using caste and try identifying people along class lines. You will find you can easily build a broader unity of people across castes against every social evil.
The practical way to achieve it is to gradually expand the forces against caste. The Dalit movement should overtly imbibe class orientation through a basic realization that they can never annihilate castes on their own, least in the present mode when they are divided in numerous subcastes. The left movement should see its role in anti-caste struggle through the fundamental realization that unless the vast mass of organic proletariat is liberated and joined them, they will never reach their goal of revolutionary transformation of the society. These movements have traversed along wrong paths so far and it should not be difficult for them to realize this in light of their failure. Their convergence itself will weaken the caste consciousness in society to a large extent. But it would still not completely rid it of caste, and would continue to manifest into some or the other caste atrocity. Such manifestation then should be combated by the Left unity with physical force. If the Left comes to the rescue of Dalits in their moment of crisis, it will dispel their misgiving about the Left and get them closer to the latter, in turn adding to the strength of the Left forces, which then could be used for suppression of caste expression. This spiraling increase of strength of the anti-caste forces should lead to eventual annihilation of castes.
Should caste struggles be violent or non violent?
Castes struggles historically have been internecine, in sense that castes fought in their vicinity for supremacy and left the exploiting upper castes unchallenged. Beyond this actual caste wars, the caste war becomes infeasible and hollow rhetoric. What is this caste war? Which caste is going to war against which? There has never been an instance in history of such a war. Those who speak of such a thing do not know what they are talking about. Violence or non-violence is immaterial to me.
Once we saw an active Dalit Panther movement. Any lessons to be learnt from the movement?
Dalit Panthers was a natural reaction of the Dalit youth emptying out of universities, facing a bleak future ahead in the times of upsurge in caste atrocities, lack of response from its mainstream leadership, and rising wave of rebellious movements all over the world. It was also natural that Dalit Panthers spoke militant language, inspired as it was by the Black Panthers in the US. However, they did not have any of the three strengths of which Ambedkar spoke in 1936 explaining the general weakness of Dalits, viz., organizational strength, financial strength and mental strength, to back their militant rhetoric. They stumbled upon a radical ideology through which they could have secured organizational (by getting the organizational strength backing this ideology) as well as mental strengths (ideology itself) but a section of it distanced itself accusing the other of forsaking Ambedkarite path of Buddhism. It exposed the ideological limitation of the Dalit movement. The Dalit Panthers thus actually died still death although it still survives in its name and degenerate character. In material terms it might not have secured any positive result, but in symbolic terms as a rebellion of the Dalit youth it shook the establishment to its foundations. The name and fame of Dalit Panthers is largely attributable to its potential threat to the system.
The lesson to be learnt from the failure of the Dalit Panther, according to me, is the incompatibility of the perceived ideology of the Dalit movement with the existential needs of Dalits. The section, led by one Raja Dhale, raised the issue of Buddhism as the ultimate path shown by Ambedkar and the Left ideology was antithetical to it. Buddhism had a huge emotional appeal because of its association with Ambedkar. Soon, the Dalit Panthers split and went on splitting thereafter as is expected of such a caste based organization. What survived of it is degenerate versions, its own antithesis, which performed the role of terminator of the Dalit movement on behalf of the ruling classes. It resurfaced in other States but approximately retraced the Maharashtra path before it died. Another important lesson to be learnt is that unless Dalits join hands with others of their class, they will never achieve their objective. The third lesson is that of strategy; the emotional outburst of militancy can badly backfire in absence of strategic back up of material strength.
The above does indicate what went wrong with the Dalit Panthers. To reiterate, it lacked ideological reconstruction commensurate with its radical programme. Mere emotional outburst is no substitute of cold blooded analysis. If Dalit Panthers had undertaken systematic analysis of what went wrong in the mainstream Dalit movement, it would have possibly brought up the issue of ideology and other wrongs that emasculated the Dalit movement. Although it spoke of a radical agenda, it remained rooted in marshland of castes and communities and failed to supplement its organizational strength.
How you reached to this anti-caste movement and Dalit consciousness. How you get in with?
Born in a family of landless labourers, I was naturally impelled to ponder over inequalities of various kinds that existed in our village. Actually ours was not a typical village as it had railway station, road connecting to a taluka town, lime factories and coal mines. It helped me transcend caste socialization and see though things in a rebellious mode. I got introduced to Marxism trough a biography of Joseph Stalin, which was given to me as a prize for standing first in the second standard. It was years before I got anything to read by Ambedkar. As there was no tutor for me in learning Marxism, I went in a dialectical way progressing gradually in theoretical and practical aspects, which inevitably threw up many incongruities that needed resolution. This process brought me face to face with the reality of caste consciousness blocking germination of class consciousness in people. Later, I was convinced that the basic duality of caste and class was the fundamental folly of the early communists. They failed to take into class analysis the specificity of social landscape of this land and instead applied the imported moulds to determine classes in India. Class analysis is to be done in a concrete situation obtaining in any country. If this was done, much of the castes could have been embodied within classes, eliminating thereby this unfortunate duality. If this had happened there was no need for parallel Dalit movement. The entire history of India would have been different.
I am convinced that without confronting this issue, nothing worthwhile will happen in the country. Castes have been a potent weapon in the hands of ruling classes to keep people divided. It is vital that this weapon is destroyed. Uniting the entire lowest strata as a class is the zeroeth requirement in the revolutionary project in India.
"In my field I have the highest qualifications but still remain a 'scheduled caste', you once said. Does the matter remain same now too? Can you elaborate?
Nothing changes in India fundamentally. Yes, that’s the fact. It is shocking to see even so called progressive people identifying you as a Dalit. That reveals how deep seated these feelings are. I have always been a top ranking student, always been sincere in what I did, always had a mark in whatever I attempted and had confidence to outpace anyone in an objective competition. But in practice I was shocked to see being outpaced by pigmies. How do you explain it? That I felt was caste that operates as a system of premium and discount. Actually, it is little complex than that. It is not simply being a Dalit that discounts you; it is being a Dalit with confidence that acts against you. It is the same age old notion that operates. The system protected you if you abided by your caste rung. It punished you once you defied it. If you are a Dalit begging for reservation, they might give you anything. But if you say you do not want reservation, they would damn you.
I hate to mix up my personal experience with social but some times it pains me to see pervasive hypocrisy in this country. I have always been radical and never talked about caste in a stereotypical manner. Most of my writings also are sans caste in that sense. And still I find being referred to a “Dalit’ writer as though that is my qualification. Do they refer to others by their caste? Then why should they identify Dalits by caste? It only reveals caste venom in their mind. Leave apart dog-eat-dog competitive paradigm of corporate life of which I have been a part, but you find it happening everywhere. An alumnus of IIM Ahmedabad taking up a social cause would get eulogy from every corner, press, the alumni community and so on. I have been thickly involved in these activities for the last two decades but have never experienced any appreciation of this sort. On the contrary, I get referred to as ‘Dalit’ this or Dalit that. An IIMA alumnus writing a story book gets highlighted as a writer, I wrote 18 books of long term consequence, nobody acknowledged me as such. I would not normally care for my subjective self but at some level you note the objective filth surrounding you.
While referring to Khairlanji incidents you used the word ‘Shock treatment’ in one of your interviews. Can you describe more about it?
This phrase appears to have caused a good deal of confusion. People thought I just advocated rape for rape or murder for murder in retaliation of a caste atrocity. This is complete distortion. Actually this ‘shock treatment’ was spoken in conjunction with the class unity of people working concertedly for annihilation of caste. The theoretical point I make is that caste as a social evil needs to be so internalized by the society at large. That can happen when you consciously shun its usage and try uniting people on the basis of their existential state. This move will detach the lower strata of the BCs/OBCs (who actually execute caste atrocities) from their caste elites who instigate them using their caste ties. This kind of ‘class’ unity across castes itself would act as a bulwark against caste. This outfit should consciously orient itself to take cudgel for Dalits to dispel their misgiving that ‘class’ has always belittled their woes. While such a move will go a long way in clearing the casteist atmosphere in villages, the caste culture of centuries might tend to thrust out its dirty neck occasionally here and there. Such instances would require forceful curbing by the class collective of people. Because without such a direct punishment, a physical hit, the perpetrators may not see the reason. They need to be shocked out of their cultural cover. In that sense I used ‘shock treatment’. If you analyse other way round, why caste atrocities happen on Dalits, you will find that they happen because the perpetrator is sure that there will not be any repercussion. If he sees the possibility of retaliation, he would not easily dare to do so. The law, the way it is operated is no deterrent to him. After all, law operates in the same social context. If caste atrocity happens because of social prejudice, the law enforcing machinery cannot be assumed out of it. It is only the structural equipment to deal with it on behalf of the victims can straighten matters. I have huge theory of cultural change to back up this dictum and equally huge empirical data to show that it works.
“Ayodhya verdict is one more instance of 'Design Justice'. The first time I used this term was for the verdict pronounced by Bhandara court in Khairlanji case”, please tell more about this?
Yes, in these days of neoliberal ascendancy the courts also appear to have imbibed market orientation. The judgements are getting out of legal bounds and patterned to cater to the ‘customers’ test’ and to suit the ‘market place’. In Khairlanji, the court while dismissing all possible grounds that would make it a serious case, had awarded six people death penalty. It said Khairlanji did not have a caste angle; it did not involve any conspiracy, and even the outrage of women’s modesty. Now if it was a simple case of murder happening out of a fit of rage, something unintended kind of unfortunate incident, it will never be construed as the ‘rarest of the rare’ case to warrant capital punishment. But the court still awards it. Because it knows people had an unprecedentedly massive agitation over the incident and were expecting the harsh punishment to the criminals. Already there was a discomfort among people over acquittal of all except eight, when everyone knew that entire caste village had pounced upon Bhotmange family and participated in a murderous orgy. They could be pacified only with an exemplary punishment like death penalty. It very well knew that it will not stand in the high court when it comes up for validation. It happened exactly that way. Dalits forgot all other things and rejoiced at the judgement by distributing sweets, the high court reduced the death penalty to life imprisonment for all but by then the public outcry had substantially subsided. It was thus a ‘design justice’ catered to the ‘market’!
In Ayodhya case also a similar thing can be seen. The three judge bench comprised two Hindus and one Muslim judge. They wrote independent judgements, which however converged to take cognizance of faith and belief of Hindus that Ram was born under the central dome of the ill fated Babri masjid. As a mater of fact, it was a property suit filed by thee contending parties, which could be easily decided on the basis of possessionary principle in absence of title documents. The issue of whether Ram was born at the site of Babri masjid (and precisely under the central dome) was dismissed earlier by the Supreme Court as ‘incapable of legal determination’ against the Presidential reference. But the Court went about doing the impossible. They engaged archeologists, got their report that there was a ‘place of worship’ beneath the masjid, and eventually went by faith and belief of Hindus to base their judgement. But they would still not go whole hog awarding the entire land to them as it would create uproar in other communities. So, it divided the disputed land into three equal parts and distributes it among all the contending parties, while giving the most important piece to the Ram Lallawallahs, who, backed by the Sangh Pariwar had publicly declared, ‘mandir vanhi banayenge’. The entire thing is outside the established principle of jurisprudence but could still pacify in short term all contending parties; whatever happens in the long term.
What do you say about the Dalit organizations and parties in India. In your opinion what are the demerits of these organizations?
There are numerous Dalit organizations and parties and that itself is a bad reflection of the movement they appear to constitute. They seem to whip up one or the other old stereotypes. For instance, they target Brahmanism but in abstract without knowing what exactly it means and where precisely it resides. Dalit parties thrive on rhetoric and emotional appeals to maximize political rent. They lost their moorings with people long ago and relish being tails of some or the other ruling class party. If some of them pose independence, they are all after the ‘bahujan’ that deadly product designed by Kanshiram for the electoral market. Impressed by the success of the BSP, many people have rushed after this winning formula. It has not worked for anyone. Even the success of BSP may not be attributable to it more than the specificity of caste demography of UP and its strategic handling of the electoral issues. But its attraction has not waned in the increasingly competitive electoral politics. The formula can still sustain high enough rent. In order to persist with this kind of game, you have to indulge in symbolism. They did it well in that. Ambedkar itself is constructed and packaged into a big symbol around which masses get mobilized creating an illusion that people follow these parties.
Demerits? As I see there is a demerit galore. The biggest demerit is that these organizations play with notions as a proxy of reality. For Dalits who are rooted in harsh reality it is a sad paradox. Those who are dishonestly running their electoral shops are better left to themselves.
A large section of Dalits and Adivasis are now with Maoists. How do you see this?
I am not sure about Dalits but guess they, particularly their youth, are attracted towards the Maoist path. There are no options left for them elsewhere. In 1960s in a similar state of mind they could articulate their protest in the form of Dalit Panthers. Today, the situation being far more difficult they do not have even that kind of option available to them. Look at their plight and you will see why of it. They do not have access to quality education, no hope of getting a reasonably secure job, no democratic space to raise their grievance and no mechanism to take cognizance of it. What will they do in such a situation? If they try to raise their voice, they are branded as naxalites and harassed. In fact the state, its police, is the single biggest recruitment agent of the Maoist. Most Dalit boys even before knowing what Maoism is all about get labeled as Maoist by police. They are not left any alternative than going underground as real Maoist. Scores of dalit youth who have joined ranks of Maoists reveal this help of police in making them Maoist.
Increasingly this is the kind of situation being created for the vast majority of Dalit and Tribal youth in the country. The blatant display of elitist development happening in the country just aggravates alienation in them. They do not have any structural remedy in sight. Their politics has become degenerate. They do not see prospects of extricating it from the ideological morass it is rooted in. Naturally, the uncompromising Maoist call for revolution appeals to them.
Do you have membership any organization and party?
I have been a part of some or the other progressive outfits that worked for the truly marginalized people like unorganized workers and slum dwellers right from my student days. I am still associated with number of them. But I am not a member of any party. I have been a member of a civil rights organization called Committee for the Protection of Democratic Rights based in Mumbai.
Do you ever feel the absence of an all India level organization or forum for anti caste movement and Human rights? If so what you can suggest?
Yes, I do feel that in view of the enormity of these issues there should have been an all India organization that coordinated the movement against caste as well as violation of civil rights of people. The current state of numerous organizations doing their bit is not necessarily bad but suffers from dissipation of energy. They could be effectively coordinated in a structural sense. Anti-caste movement moreover needs spectrum of efforts right from ideology to action, which cannot be managed by several small fragments.
I would suggest some organization could bridge this gap in future. But simply its emergence is no solution. It should evolve correct ideological perspective and develop capability to coordinate countrywide struggles against caste.
How do you see the National Bahujan pary,and Bharipa Bahuan Mahasangh floated by Prakash Ambedkar? And what you say about the fragmentation of Republican Party?
I have commented several times in past on the Bahujan Samaj Party through the pages of EPW and other periodicals. BSP certainly dazzles with its electoral success, which according to me is attributable to its brilliant strategy. I have gone so far as to say that it can teach a lesson or two in strategy to the so called stalwarts of the electoral politics. But I do not either attribute BSP’s success to its much flaunted ‘bahujan’ formula or see it as a party of Dalits. Just because it is headed by a Dalit does not make it a Dalit party. This ‘certificate’ based identities should be rethought by people. It is like any other ruling class party using people as its vote bank. BSP strategically treated Dalits as its core constituency and leveraged its benefit by bargaining with others from the position of strength. Nothing more. Neither it has ever claimed to be a Dalit party (it called itself a party of bahujans and now it claims to be a party of ‘sarvajan’) nor has it worked for amelioration of Dalits. Notwithstanding its propaganda, the situation of Dalits in UP remains as pathetic as ever during its rule. It still ranks first in atrocities against Dalits; it still churns out abominable example of caste atrocities. There are indications of Dalits getting disillusioned with it. All that may not happen abruptly, given the money and muscle power at its disposal, but it can never be avoided for long.
Bharip Bahujan Mahasangh of Prakash Ambedkar can be bracketed with all the ‘bahujan’ based parties. It has also its share of success in the form of ‘Akola Pattern’ but expectedly it has not endured for long. Prakash Ambedkar had a big appeal to Dalit masses because of his name but he failed to keep pace with masses’ expectations. No doubt he had to contend with the big bully in Maharashtra - Sharad Pawar, who used all his might to undermine him with his puppet in Ramdas Athawale. The strategic option for Prakash could have been to go out of Maharashtra and build a nation wide constituency and then take on Athawale in Maharashtra. It was quite doable if he had operated well. But he has failed in both, seeing it as a strategic option and trying it out in any other way. As a result, he has lost his stature even in Maharashtra. From here on to try anything will be only a uphill task for him.
Fragmentation of the Republican Party was its destiny once it failed to understand Ambedkar’s conception of it. Ambedkar, having experimented with the Independent Labour Party, which arguably was the first Left party in India claiming to be the working class party, the Scheduled Caste Federation (which had to be formed in the wake of complete ignorance of Dalit interests in Cripps Mission Report just because they remained unrepresented by their own party), conceived an idea of uniting all the non-Communist Left under a single political party, which he fancied as the Republican Party of India. Although he had begun his efforts in that direction, he did not live to see it born. In deference to his wishes, his followers founded the RPI in 1957 but it remained in the form of a scheduled caste party. It pains me observing that the so called Ambedkarites did not understand a basic fact that Ambedkar’s politics was primarily class based politics. While waging a relentless war against caste all his life, at no time in his life Ambedkar played caste politics. Unfortunately, his followers have reduced him to a protagonist of caste politics. They need to first understand Ambedkar. As regards RPI, it perhaps best illustrates the prowess of caste as a divisive category. One can see RPI splitting along the sub castes of its leaders in Maharashtra.
Do you believe that the dalit movements have nothing to draw from Gandhi's legacy? Was Gandhi’s role totally against Dalits?
I do not want to get into this futile exercise. I do not see anything in Gandhi that could be useful to Dalits in their project of emancipation. I will also not speculate about whether Gandhi was against Dalits. I may say that he was not. He was truly a sanatani Hindu as he confessed but much of it I suspect was contrived strategically to create mass appeal for him. Gandhi, more than anything else, was a shrewd strategist and he packaged his strategies in moralistic wrappers for the general mass appeal. Having said that, I would value a part of his vision about the need to prepare the society for discarding castes. I would not however take it in his moralistic way; I would take it as a part of the class struggle.
One of the serious criticisms against Dr. Ambedkar is that he didn’t take the Freedom Movement seriously.
While posing such a question, one must be clear about the content of the freedom movement and that of the anti-caste movement. The former primarily reveals replacing the colonial rulers by the native elites, whereas the latter indicates securing basic human rights for one-sixth of the population of the lowest strata. What sounds better and concrete? Ambedkar was never against independence of the country. He was rather one (unacknowledged though by the ungrateful nation) who had exposed the imperialist loot of the India by British colonialist even as a student. Basically he was suspecting the character of the Congress as anti-imperialist. He was acutely aware that the freedom movement led by the Congress was basically a ploy to secure power for the native elites --the landlords and capitalists. That is what precisely happened.
With hindsight at least we should understand what that freedom has been worth for the majority of people. Ambedkar was rather right in raising demand for the fundamental civic rights of the people condemned in India to subhuman level. In the contention with Communists he always emphasized that until we confront castes, class unity of all toilers cannot be achieved. We see it validated by times. As regards freedom movement, he had a simple argument that as they value freedom for the country, they should also mind that Dalits needed freedom. Can the argument be dismissed in light of what happened over the last six decades? It has been the freedom for moneybags to loot the country.
Is there a place for nationality, language and culture in caste movements? Do you think that dalits should go back to own culture to find the basis for emancipation?
These are all secondary matters. Among all such issues, the primary contradiction must be reckoned as caste versus Dalits. It needs to be resolved first. I do not give a damn to the bogey of Dalit culture. There is nothing lofty about Dalit culture that we should be upholding it. Ambedkar resolved these matters in his life time when he advised his followers to give up most of their customs and practices. I would accept modernist Ambedkar wholeheartedly than the bogus dalit culturists. Dalit is a pan Indian reality and it should be resolved at that level without getting confused about all these things. We will see when these issues assume salience. Presently they are not.
What is your view on the Communists and the Left in India?
Communist had a powerful ideology, the most advanced instruments for societal analysis but they miserably failed to make use of it. I suspect the Brahmanical orientation of our early communists, which lies in following the written word, incapacitated them in seeing the Indian social reality as something different than the word described. The fundamental folly they committed is to see caste as a relic of dying feudal system quite different from class. This created the unfortunate duality of class and caste, which no one understands how to deal with. The fact is that caste was and still is an integral characteristic of Indian society spanning across all aspects of life and hence should be incorporated in the class analysis. If this was creatively done, the history of India would have been quite different. Perhaps we would have had a revolution long back.
The unfortunate thing is that Left still vehemently clings to its worn out position. It will be celebrating century of its existence after 10 years, which at least should remind them that communist parties are not meant to celebrate centuries; they are meant to bring about revolutions. Mainstream Left is stuck in the marshes of electoral politics. There is a hope with the revolutionary Left. But their excessive reliance on militaristic methods is unnerving. The latter may not be avoided in the situation they are placed in but nonetheless they need to refocus on preparing masses for revolutionary politics.
Communists are not addressing caste question and considering caste will automatically annihilate as part of Class war. Vice versa, anti caste movements are not addressing class. What you say about this? What is your position regarding caste and class?
That is the big blunder both sides are committing. A little introspection should have made them realize it. But the fact that they have not, indicates how deep entrenched their obsessions are. I have provided practical way out of this situation. Although I fault the communists to have missed objective class analysis and an opportunity of incorporating anti-caste struggle within the class struggle, thereby obviating the need for separate Dalit movement, the history of last six decades cannot be wished away. In the prevailing situation, both these movements must realize their follies and objectively understand their destinies are intertwined. Neither Dalits can accomplish their goal of annihilation of castes without active support from the progressive forces nor the Left can accomplish their goal of revolution without the mass of Dalits joining them. The way of resolving this deadlock will be to orient Dalits to shun caste idiom and adopt class outlook and to orient the Left to see their duty to support Dalits in combating castes. Only this process can bring these two constituents closer and convergence into their politics.
We have seen Mayavathi's victory in U.P as a victory of Dalits. But there is lot of criticism against her on corruption, nepotism, opportunistic alliance etc. What you say about that?
As I said before I do not consider victory of Mayavati as the victory of Dalits. All the accusations against her rather reinforce my argument. They are the integral part of our system and should be seen as such. Why make an exception of Mayawati? She is playing the games all others play, doing all that what others have been doing. The only distinguishing thing perhaps is that she does it better than all of them.
What you say about the SARVAJAN SAMAJ, the slogan of Mayavathi? Is it a good step in the anti-caste movement?
What could sarvajan mean? Only the ruling class party can claim to work for the interests of all people. By declaring itself as such, BSP has discarded the mask of bahujan party. It is inconsequential for the anti-caste movement because primarily it is a ploy devised to play electoral politics.
We witnessed some kind of upsurge of Savanna Hinduism during and after Mandal period. Does the situation changed? Do you think the Sangh parivar and Hindu fundamentalism are facing setbacks?
Mandal was a manifestation of rise of the middle castes on the one hand and the increasing competition of electoral politics on the other. Socially, it was a retrograde step. It did create upper caste upsurge not against Mandal per say but against reservations as a whole. And as Dalits are identified with reservations, it easily tuned into its paradoxical worst, Dalits coming on roads in support of Mandal and getting beaten by the BCs who were supposed to be its beneficiary. Anyway, it helped the Hindutva forces in mobilizing support of the savarnas. The Rath Yatra of Advani catapulting BJP to power was all helped significantly by Mandal.
I do not think the situation is the same today. The Hindutva agenda has lost its steam. The Sangh Parivar is struggling to replace it with something lasting but has not succeeded yet. The recent Ayodhya verdict amply proved that masses were not interested in Hindutva any more. It would be a folly to assume that the Sangh Pariwar has given it up altogether but certainly as of now it does not want to rely upon it as its major strategy. They will preserve it for some opportune time in future. Purely for the loss of issue of salience, the Sangh Pariwar has faced a setback but simultaneously the configuration of politics also has significantly changed. People give a damn to issues; they just opt for alternative hoping to escape their plight. BJP still stands as the only national alternative to the Congress at that level. That is good enough for them.
The issues of dalits, women and workers are interlinked and in wider sense these three came under the banner oppressed. But some people are considering these issues separately. Does it correct to separate Dalit question etc from the common goal?
In my opinion the common tendency among the so called progressive sections to bring in many such issues on par with caste is a deliberate attempt not to accord caste question any special importance. The gender, tribal, nationality, language, are all the issues but clubbing them with the caste smacks of deliberate tendency to undermine caste. Among several issues at any point there has to be a single issue that define principal contradiction, which craves for resolution. Those who bring in myriad issues on par with caste should be seen as apathetic to take up caste issue and seen clearly as anti-Dalits. The time has come to tear the progressive masks of people.
I agree with you that all these issues can be seen as interlinked. But even if they are not, they can be prioritized. You cannot jumble them up and land up doing nothing.
The main victims of globalization are dalits and adivasis. But the dalit intellectuals seem to be non active with anti imperialist movement. Do you think it is right? What you say about.
Oh no, not only the Dalit intellectuals are not active in anti-imperialist movement, they appear to be the biggest supporters of globalization. I fail to understand their motivation in doing so but they are there singing paeans to the state policies. You are absolutely correct that Dalits and Adivasis are the main victims of globalization. It does not require much brains to understand that globalization is basically elitist. Ideologically it reflects the much maligned doctrine of Spencerian social Darwinism. If this much is understood, it follows that the lowest you are placed in social hierarchy, the hardest you would be hit. Anti-imperialism is something which dalit intellectuals barely understand. It did not belong to their lexicon. But they ought to understand at least what happens to casteism, their holy obsession. If you look at what globalization did to casteism, taking caste atrocities as proxy for it, you would find that casteism has been on consistent rise over the last two decades. The economic condition of majority of Dalits has certainly deteriorated. But these so called intellectuals would stick out their neck spreading falsehood that Dalits have benefitted by globalization. It pains me to see the intellectual bankruptcy and more so the intellectual dishonesty of this gang.
Some advocates conversation is a good method for annihilating caste. But the converted section remained as dalits in the new religion too. What you say about the conversion theory? Do you think Ambedkar's move was wrong?
Conversion has been taking places throughout history but that did not change the fate of Dalits any significantly. The only positive thing about conversion is that the tenets of no other religion sanctions caste discrimination as Hindu religion does. But empirically, there has been little difference. Muslims has castes, Christians have much worse of it, Sikhs are virtual Hindus as regards caste. No, conversion has not been the solution to caste problem of Dalits. It may reflect your protests but does not constitute the solution.
Dr Amabedkar’s view of conversion is not beyond controversy. He genuinely thought that castes are sourced from the religious scriptures of Hinduism and hence would be difficult to destroy unless these scriptures were destroyed. The conversion therefore became the alternative. When he made a historic declaration that he would not die as Hindu in Yeole in 1935, it had created a lot of confusion among his own activists. He therefore called a big conference in Mumbai in 1936 to explain his rationale to the activists. His entire explanation was based on the existential solution to the problem of Dalits who suffered discrimination and atrocities from Hindus. Analyzing their weakness as the basic cause behind their plight, he proposed a communitarian solution of merging with some existing religious community by embracing the latter’s religion. When he actually converted two decades later to Buddhism, which did not have a community in the country, this explanation did not apply. Howsoever this historical incident is seen, the conversion of Dalits to Buddhism has barely changed their plight. On the contrary, it is seen as a cultural assertion of Dalits and responded to with atrocities by the caste Hindus as in the case of Khairlanji.
We have recently witnessed all kinds of revivalism and religious fundamentalism. Muslim fundamentalists are coming to the forefront on some issues. What you say?
In my analysis this is the outcrop of neoliberalism. These policies create crisis for majority of people. The free market paradigm creates uncertainty and insecurity in people which impels them to seek support of occult forces like gods, religion and seers. This is one way to explain the surprising rise of fundamentalism and market for the godmen all over the world. The other way is the intrigues of global capital to secure its rule by deflecting attention of people from the core issues. Islamophobia over the world is certainly a product of these intrigues. It additionally serves to tighten the administrative grip over the people in the name of security. The security syndrome built over the last two decades has systematically eroded the democratic spaces available for the people.
How you evaluate Kanach illaya's position on Buffalo Nationalism? Really, do you feel some section of intellectuals making caste issue in to dalit fundamentalism?
I do not agree with Kancha Ilaiah’s phraseology of Dalit Baujan or his theories about their culture being superior to that of the upper castes. It is really not true. I would not subscribe to anything which is based on caste or which promotes caste pride, even though it is from and for Dalits.
What are your coming works?
I do not plan books. My books happen. Everything that I have written has a heavy context of some contemporary problem. My profession does not go well with this business of writing books but still I have to find time for my commitment to people. Recently, Zed Books have published my new book - Persistence of Castes. Some of my half written stuff might be completed this year. They are: Science and Technology in Ancient India, Understanding Ambedkar, Caste and Modernity, and a few others.
Please tell about your family, living conditions etc.
I live in Mumbai with my wife Rama and old parents. We have two daughters: Prachi is doing her MD in GS Medical College, Mumbai and the younger Rashmi is studying in University of Virginia in USA for her undergraduate degree. She has been a top ranking junior Tennis Player.
